Transcript

Christine
Welcome to Incite Brilliance, the podcast from H&H, full of fresh perspectives on internal communication and employee engagement. I’m Christine Jarvis and today I’m joined by Melody Moore from Liberare Consulting. And we’re going to talk about DEI or diversity, equity and inclusion in the workplace, and in particular, how DEI needs to work in partnership with IC in order to make some really powerful, long lasting change.

So hi there, Melody, how are you?

Melody
Hi, Christine. I’m really well. Thank you.

Christine
Good, good. Thanks very much for joining us today. I would just like to start by saying that your consultancy is called Liberare Consulting, isn’t it?

Melody
It is indeed.

Christine
I’m just interested in the reason for that name, why you chose it and how it relates to diversity, inclusion, equity and so on.

Melody
Yes. So it’s Italian. It’s a verb for to free or to be free. And I chose it because my whole philosophy is about helping people and organisations free themselves from the things that are holding them back. So from a diversity and inclusion perspective, it’s about what are the things that are getting in the way of an organisation being more inclusive and creating a more inclusive culture. 

And then on an individual basis, when I work with individuals coaching or development, it’s about what are their internal blockers?

Christine
Right. That’s really interesting, isn’t it? Because that in itself says a lot about what your role is and how you can make diversity and inclusion policies work. So you’re joining us primarily to talk about your work into the ways that internal communication professionals have a role to play in supporting efforts to embed diversity and inclusion in organisations.

And that includes putting the message across, but also, more importantly, making them stick. Just to set the scene when we talk about Dei or D and I, we could be referring to diversity and inclusion. We could be referring to diversity equity or equality and inclusion. People use different terms don’t they. Between different organisations. But it’s generally the same thing.

Melody
I would say yes and no. So when I first started, it was mostly D and I, diversity and inclusion, and the E has come in and some people also had B for belonging as well. For me belonging is part of inclusion. But the E stands for equity, not equality. And the reason for that is equality is about treating everybody the same. And equity is about recognising that people are starting in different places and have got different experiences. And so it’s actually about maybe treating people differently. So fairness is treating people differently rather than treating everybody the same. So most people now when they use the E are referring to equity and people change the order depending on what they think is most important often.

So, you know, there was a period where some people were putting inclusion first because they thought that was the most important, but I don’t personally, I don’t think it really matters. It’s whichever is comfortable for you.

Christine
Right. I guess you need to treat them all with equity, don’t you?

Melody
Yeah, I think so. Sometimes it doesn’t matter which one is first.

Christine
Absolutely. Just to start off with, I just wonder in your experience, what are the main issues that organisations are dealing with right now in relation to diversity, equity and inclusion?

Melody
I think at the moment what we’re seeing an awful lot of is, pushback, actually, we’re seeing a lot of, you know, what was Elon Musk saying? DEI must D.I.E. You know, it’s just, not great. I think alongside that, and I’m hearing this a lot from other consultants like myself. It’s there’s a squeeze on budgets. And that’s just generally it’s not just DEI budgets, but, there’s still some anxiety. I think the change of government, you know, financial situation is causing some anxiety.
And I’ve been consulting for over 20 years and I’ve seen many cycles like this. That what are considered to be non-essentials get squeezed first.

Christine
It’s a bit like CSR, isn’t it? Things have to be, they can’t just be bolted on because then when times get tough, they’re the first things to go.

Melody
Exactly. So I think there’s there’s definitely pressure. I think also combined with that though is perhaps a sense that, all of the investment and all of the efforts that people have been making have not had the impact that they would want. And so they’re all kind of combining, to mean that there is pressure on D&I professionals to really be upping their ability to make an impact.
You know, I think that there may have been some wrong people in the roles. And I think that is changing. I’m seeing over time D&I professionals being not just having lived experience and passion, but having a lot of skills, change management, OD, influencing skills that maybe some people who moved into the role initially didn’t necessarily have those, but I’m seeing a shift there. So there’s a bit of a, I think it’s growing up.

Christine
Yeah, it sounds like it’s very much maturing and becoming a bit more of an organisational priority and a bit of a commercial one as well. I mean, there must be an awareness that you need people with the experience and the knowledge, which is why you have a role working with organisations. What kind of organisations have you been working with?

Melody
A real range, so I work, I started my career in the public sector. I was an NHS manager originally. But since I moved over to consulting, I work with a huge range of organisations, both public and private sector, also global organisations, not just local, UK. And it’s so much more complicated when you look at diversity and inclusion from a global perspective. A hundred times more complicated.
And I see that’s often where organisations really need support. It’s, you know, to some degree, it’s relatively straightforward. In somewhere like the UK, you know, our laws allow us to do certain things. Our society is, more accepting of certain things, but as soon as you start working globally, so much more complicated.

Christine
That’s really interesting. Is that because of different legislation, different cultural attitudes towards diversity?

Melody
Yes, exactly. Lots of different legislation, lots of different societal attitudes. You know, if you think about LGBTQ, for instance, in different countries, that’s very different. You know, it’s illegal to be gay in some countries, you know, so it’s a very different, thing. And when you’re trying to do something globally, you’ve really got to think about local context.

But even something really simple. I had this conversation with someone the other day, so, for instance, if you’re wanting to collect data, there’s different laws in different countries. So want to collect demographic data I’m talking about. Yeah, it’s different in different countries. What you can and can’t do what you can and can’t collect both legally and culturally. 

But also, you know, if you’re looking at your data and you’re thinking, well, we’ll look at people who are in the minority, ethnically let’s say, in different countries. So in the UK, a white person would obviously be in an ethnic majority. But say you were in Asia, you’re an ethnic minority. But the implications of being an ethnic minority as a white person in Asia, when you’re probably an expat, you’re more likely to be at the top of an organisation than not. 

That’s very different to being an ethnic minority in the UK. So even that is, you know, the terminology, the experience, everything so much more complicated.

Christine
Yeah. That sounds where it’s especially important to have people with the right skills and the right knowledge locally as well as, yes, an organisational whole.

Melody
Absolutely.

Christine
I’m interested in something that you talk about which is about aligned DEI and the A, B, C, D. You break it down to these four key elements A, B, C, D of aligned DEI. Would you just talk us through that?

Melody
Sure. And let me just tell you why I am really passionate about this as well. What I see is a lot of organisations are doing lots of great things, lots of tactical things that in order to try – and I’ll use a very management consultant term – move the dial on DEI, you know, to create a more inclusive and diverse organisation and culture.
But the problem with that is they’re often not aligned. So there’s lots of activity, not as much impact as you would like. And some of the activity can be quite tactical. So it might look good, but it’s not actually having the impact. So the ABCD model is an attempt to help people think more systemically and more strategically, because D&I is culture change. 

And if we don’t treat it as culture change, we’re never going to have the impact that we want. Because you’re creating an inclusive culture.

Christine
Yeah, yeah. So it’s got to be ingrained. It’s got to be embedded and interwoven. It’s moving away from that bolted-on idea that you talked about.

Melody
Exactly. My dream is that DEI doesn’t exist in the future, because it’s just part of the everyday running of an organisation.
So it’s not a separate thing. And it’s woven into everything that an organisation does. So let me talk you through. So, there’s four elements, A, B, C, D. There’s quite a lot in each element. So I’m just going to talk a little bit about each one. But the first A stands for ambition. And ambition is about what is your DEI strategy?
And making sure that is aligned – you’ll hear these words a lot – to the organisational strategy. So how is D&I helping the organisation achieve its aims? It’s so important that you make that connection. And it’s quite common for that connection not to be made, that it’s seen to be a good thing to do. But without any real understanding of why.

And then if you think about, well, you know, it’s kind of a feeling. That’s why it’s easy to cut when budgets are tight, because it’s not seen as an imperative part of the organisation’s success. And it’s super key then to have your key stakeholders, your top team, completely aligned in terms of why you’re doing this and what does that actually mean for them and for the organisation?
It means creating a new culture. And I think an awful lot of organisations don’t understand or leaders in the organisations haven’t really thought through what it means.

Christine
Right. Because they haven’t had to, I guess.

Melody
Yes. Because, you know, what I often see is, something will be taken and presented to them and they’ll go, ooh, yes, that sounds like a good idea or not. Or I don’t like this, I don’t like this. But what you actually need to do is work with them. They need to be involved. And you need time with them. And that’s where I see it being really impactful, is getting time with that top team and really helping them understand and understand what it means for them personally, because it probably means they’re going to have to change how they behave. And most don’t see that.

Christine
No, no. So B, then, we’ve got B for behaviour, is that correct?

Melody
Exactly. I would say most organisations focus on A and B right. More than C and D. So B is behaviour and a lot of focus here in organisations is often about training you know. So you might do inclusive leadership training, conscious inclusion, inclusive recruiting, whatever, lots of good stuff, helping people understand, hopefully change some mindset change but also understand the behaviours. But also, you know, you might see training, development programmes for underrepresented groups. So actually helping – this comes down to equity. People from underrepresented groups may get some additional support in order to help them progress, because what we see is a pyramid in most organisations where they may be quite diverse, you know, if you look at overall numbers, but the diversity is clustered at the bottom.
So that’s what programmes for underrepresented groups, you know, means and that’s what they’re for. And I would also say that behaviour means actually integrating the behaviours into your competency model, into your performance management system. So again, aligning and integrating into everyday operations.

Christine
Thank you. So moving on to C then, you say that C and D are less common. So C is for context.

Melody
Yeah. So I think there’s less focus sometimes placed on this. So with context, this is about understanding your specific context. And what I sometimes see is people go to a conference and go ooh gosh, that was a really good idea, I’ll go and implement that in my organisation. Of course, it doesn’t work, because their organisational context is different. 

Or you see people move between organisations and try and implement the same things. You’ve got to understand what your organisation is like. What is the culture? How easy is it to change things? What other initiatives are going on? How much support have you got from the senior leader? Understanding all that? And also then your external context and this is something again, maybe people don’t always focus on. 

So that might be, you know, how much diversity have you got in your sector, you know, you’ve got specific roles that can be really hard to recruit into if you’re just looking for the exact same skills that you’ve always recruited from. Does that mean then you need to do some work going right back to maybe junior schools with others, maybe in your sector to encourage people from, a range of, maybe ethnicities, genders, whatever to study the subjects that are required in order to work in your industry?

So, you know, depending on your industry, on your sector, it could have a big impact on what your initiatives are. Also your stakeholders, your clients, your, you know, are you publicly listed? What does that mean? All of that stuff means that what you do is going to be different to what the person next to you does.

Christine
Okay. So how does design lead off from there, then? D for design.

Melody
Yeah, I have my own podcast and I was interviewing someone in DEI on that the other day, and she was saying, this is the boring stuff, but it’s really important. So this is, this is really goes to what levers have you, can you pull in order to, explain and reinforce the behaviours that you want?

So things like, HR policies and procedures, you know, are your recruitment processes, have you looked at them with the DEI lens? Have you got your employee resource groups to look at your recruitment processes and pick them apart and say, this doesn’t work. This works. You know, this is really attractive to our people that we represent.

This is really an attractive, you know, it’s going over things and picking at them and pulling them apart and rebuilding them so that they are aligned to your aim of creating a more diverse and inclusive organisation.

Christine
Wow. Interesting. Okay, well, that sounds like a fairly natural lead into how we talk about DEI and IC or internal comms, or how it’s about the communication between all parties in an organisation.
And particularly I’m interested in how DEI and internal comms can work together to get that alignment and to get that embedding through the strategy and to get everybody bought into it.

Melody
I think it’s a really important partnership. It’s one of the most important partnerships that a D&I professional could have, because internal comms professionals have a range of skills, typically, that D&I professionals may not have.

So not just communications and how do you communicate well, but also they often have an understanding of psychology and people and change. And so, working together with them, you can learn a lot from your IC colleagues. So if nothing else, you know, that partnership is there as a real benefit to, to D&I. So yeah, I would say get there, get in there at the beginning.

So get them in there at the beginning. Get them in there as part of your planning process. So they are often out in the organisation, you know, listening and understanding what employees want, but also what other initiatives are going on in the organisation. So, you know, that can be a really good source of information as well as advising on, for instance, creating a communication plan as part of your D&I strategy.

Christine
Right. Yeah. I’m, you’ve written and spoken before about how the timing of messaging is really important as well. And that goes back to that same alignment, this alignment in putting out messages and whether people are ready to receive them amongst the noise.

Melody
Exactly. I think that’s such an important point, this idea of noise, and I think we forget that, people are bombarded with messages and emails and, you know, different information that different parts of the organisation want to get out there, and your internal comms colleagues will, one, help you make sure your messaging is really crisp and will have the impact you want it to, but also make sure, so it stands out in the noise.

But also, like you say, sometimes it’s about timing. You know, don’t put your messages out at the same time as something else that’s really important. And that actually is not just about messaging. That can be about timing of initiatives. Not just about how you communicate it and when you communicate it, it’s when you do it. Because if you’re going to do it when you know somebody else in another part of the business is putting out something really important as well, and the people on the receiving end of the messaging think that thing is more important than yours, they’re going to listen to that other thing and not you, so you get drowned out. You said something recently when we talked, about ‘dead cat’?

Christine
Yeah, like putting out a diversion, a diversionary story to detract from the story you don’t want people to read or hear.

Melody
Exactly. So people use that, people use timing. They use stories. People who, you know, want to, really influence what people are paying attention to. So you need to think about that too. I’m not suggesting people need to put out dead cats, but that they, you know, that you do need to think really carefully about timing, impact, influence, and not just devise your own calendar and go for it.

Christine
Have you’ve seen any really good examples of where DEI and internal comms have worked well together?

Melody
Yeah, I think, I’m not going to name names, but I do know one organisation I was working with where, when they started off, the new head of DEI in post, when they started off the employee networks had gone maybe, let’s say a little bit rogue. So they were very passionate, but there was a lot of noise. That was the feedback that the new D&I person was getting. There’s a lot of noise. A lot of it was about events, you know, celebrations, etc. so there’s a lot of noise. But what is the impact? The networks were not working together. They were, so there was competition actually between them in terms of who’s making the loudest noise and who’s getting them the most focus. And, you know, the feedback from the business was this is not helping.

So they brought the networks together, but they also brought internal comms in to work with the networks. Some of it was about alignment. So, aligning the networks to the D&I strategy and to a communication strategy and to a plan. So it was more, you know, if there’s 12 months in the year, you can’t have all of your networks having celebrations in August, for instance, so which ones are your most important ones? So, picking out I think they called them hero events, you know, and so making sure they were spread out rather than everybody doing things randomly. So there was a kind of coordination and alignment going on there, but also then educating. So educate network heads about communication and work with them to help them create better communications.

But it was almost like, you know, we will help you with this, but in return, you have to pick your hero events and let’s try and create a more cohesive, aligned plan. And what was interesting is, as a result of that work and other work they were doing, the networks started working together better. So then they were looking intersectionally. So what are things that affect, you know, this group and that group and let’s do something together in order to amplify both, voices. So there was definitely less competition between them. And there was definitely better alignment to the organisation’s DEI strategy and the organisation strategy. So, yeah, the internal comms played really key role in that.

Christine
Yeah, yeah. Oh, fascinating. Also on the employee networks, there’s a lot, there’s a lot to talk about there isn’t there? I remember you once saying something like the people who are the most passionate about leading a network are not always the best placed to communicate about it.

Melody
Yes, yes. So passion is clearly super important. Yeah. You’ve got to really, you don’t do something like an employee network head role unless you are passionate, because it’s exhausting and people get very frustrated and burnt out from it because partly, probably because they are so passionate. But that doesn’t mean that they’re necessarily best placed to communicate, because sometimes that passion comes out too strongly and alienates people. So I’ve heard stories of, you know, people who were not in a minority group getting quite verbally jumped on for asking a question, you know, and so, one of the most important things I think, in D&I is about understanding how to influence.

And just going and overwhelming someone with your passion for something – it has its place and I’m not suggesting that it should never be done. I think stories of lived experience are super-important to help build empathy, and understanding other people’s perspectives. But influencing is a lot more than just sharing your story. So actually understanding other people’s perspectives, facilitating a dialogue around, rather than both trying to be right, trying to understand each other, you know, there’s that really, what we need to get to is understanding different perspectives. So yeah, as I say passion is important, but also understanding when to use that in a, perhaps a more overt way and when to actually take a deep breath and think, what is a better way to achieve what it is we want to achieve? And internal comms, you know, so helpful in terms of helping to understand that, craft a message in a way that people want to hear it.

Because I think that’s one of the problems that we’ve got at the moment, is that people are not wanting to hear it, because they perhaps feel a little bit like, you know, overwhelmed and defensive. You know, I was at, I’ve been to a number of conferences recently and I’ve heard the phrase, you know, the vilification of white men, particularly white middle-aged men. You know, I was hearing this phrase ‘male, pale and stale’, and I hate, I passionately hate that phrase. Because what it does is it creates an enemy, an ‘us and them’. And that is not what we’re trying to achieve. And by continuously repeating this, I was sat next to a white man and I was talking to him about how he felt. And it’s alienating, to use lazy language like that is, I don’t think it’s okay. And I don’t think it helps.

Christine
Yeah, absolutely. To create an enemy of one group that you see as having the upper hand is not helpful at, at the very basic level of getting their buy-in, getting their support. You know, alienation.

Melody
If they’re the ones who are in control, in charge, which they are, you need them to want to change, and making them feel bad about themselves is not going to help.

Christine
No, no, it’s just going to get them going all Elon Musk, isn’t it?
But again, it’s really fascinating because you’re suggesting that the people leading networks do need to have these other professional skills, basically. And there is this question about whether, it moves on those roles of leading networks do move on from being a passion project and being something that is semi-professional. Is it something that’s integrated into their professional life, are they rewarded for it? And I’ve heard you speak about that before.

Melody
Yes. And it’s a huge debate about whether heads of networks should be rewarded. And what does that mean? Typically it doesn’t mean they’re paid additional amounts for it. But I would say in more enlightened organisations, what it means is it’s considered to be part of their job. And what that means is then it’s part of their KPIs. They can be rewarded for success in that role. You know, maybe it’s about reducing their other requirements so that they’ve got time to do it because an awful lot of ERG heads do this in their own time. Their day job is not reduced. They’re doing it on top of it.

Christine
When you say ERG heads?

Melody
Employee Resource Groups, employee-led networks, they’ve got different terms. It’s the same thing typically. Yes. Different acronyms. And another element of this and something I’m really passionate about is that it’s often women who are in those roles. And that means that they’re doing what I call office housework. And what I mean by office housework is all of those things that contribute to the smooth running of an organisation that are not recognised.

In fact, it’s often the opposite because people who are doing those things, are therefore not doing the other things that lead to promotion and recognition. So it’s a double bind because not only are they not valued, you’re actually also then not spending your time doing the things that do contribute to progression and recognition. And it is often women who do these roles, you know, most D&I conferences that I go to are women, who are there. When I’ve worked with heads of networks, they’re predominantly women. You know, it’s just more housework that we’re doing.

Christine
Is that one of the culturally ingrained things that we’re talking about? Why is it mostly women?

Melody
I think women see the importance of it and think, oh, I need to do something about this. Obviously, women are not a minority, in absolute terms, but we are under-represented. So there’s probably some of that about feeling that you want to make a difference. You do make a difference. It’s just not what gets you recognised and promoted. You know, there’s all sorts of things, D&I councils, often predominantly women, you know, there’s just all sorts of things, even things like organising the office Christmas party, predominantly done by women.

Like it’s all of these things that, lots of stuff that’s done around organisational culture. The softer stuff is often done by women because they think it’s important. Whereas I think others maybe think, oh, well, that’s nice, but that’s not what’s going to get me more money or promoted or, you know, so one organisations need to recognise it more, and therefore maybe a broader range of people would step up and do it.

Christine
I’m wondering, after all that we’ve talked about just now, the idea of working together and all aligning on DEI, how do we get everybody feeling that DEI belongs to them, rather than it being something segmented, something just for other people? If they don’t happen to be in a minority group or a group that needs more representation.

Melody
Yeah, I think there’s probably two things. Or there’s two things I do when I’m working with organisations. One is help people connect to their own experience of difference or otherness, because we’ve all felt different and that we don’t belong, or that we feel othered, at some point in our lives. So I broaden out the definition of diversity to be much, much broader than the protected characteristics that are protected by law. So, help people connect on a sort of heart, empathetic level to their own feelings of being outside. And that helps people understand that DEI is for everyone and that everybody is affected, and that everybody benefits from a more inclusive organisation.

You know, there’s so many, I think someone told me the other day, there’s so many examples of where something that was designed as a, maybe as an accessibility thing has benefits for everybody. You know, so closed captions on television, designed obviously for people who couldn’t hear, my daughter, and it seems like it’s very common among the young folk, use closed captions all the time. Like they don’t have the sound on. They just read them. You know, or if you’re in an airport and, you know, that’s benefited everybody. Its initial roots came out of trying to make things more accessible. There’s so many examples of things like that. 

Paternity leave benefits women just as much as it benefits men. It benefits men in terms of allowing them to have time with their children, create those beautiful relationships with their children. It also allows women to have shorter maternity leave breaks and go back into the workplace and not feel that they’ve really missed out and have all of those years where they’re missing out in their career. So much is about, inclusion is for everyone. 

And then the second thing is getting people to connect to the business case for DEI. Now people say, I’m sick of talking about the business case for DEI. I’m sick of people saying they’re sick of talking about the business case for DEI! Because clearly the business case for DEI has not been made, otherwise we wouldn’t be in the position that we’re in.

Christine
We wouldn’t be talking about it!

Melody
The business case is an organisational thing, and each organisation needs to understand its own business case, but also every single person in that organisation needs to understand their own business case. And when I say business case, I mean there are compliance elements, ie. you’re not breaking the law. There are moral elements, so for some people it’s the right thing to do. Well, why is it the right thing to do? What values do you associate with that? And then the third thing is the business reasons and some of those are based on research, it’s better for innovation. It’s better for, you know, complex problem solving, whatever. And others are things like our customers expect it. We want to represent the client base that we are working with. Whatever they are, you need to figure all of those out and not make assumptions. So they’ve got to connect hearts and minds to this.

Christine
Well, just as as internal communications, we need to make sure that all our comms strategies, all our messaging is aligned with the business strategy, it sounds like that’s pretty much the same situation for DEI, isn’t it? So is a good place to start for DEI and IC to get their heads together and make a case, if there hasn’t been one already?

Melody
Yes. And why are we actually really doing this and then how do we communicate that? But I think it’s more than communicating it. It’s about helping people make their own business case. So rather than just saying, oh yes, that’s what the organisation says, that must be true. What does it actually mean for me? Because if you’re going to change a culture and you’re going to change people’s day-to-day behaviours, they’ve got to believe in it.

Christine
I think that’s a great place to leave it. I’ve got to believe in it. I’ve got to believe that it has value to everybody, not just individuals, not just certain groups, but everybody. Thanks very much, Melody. That’s been really fascinating. We could talk, I could talk to you about this for hours. It’s just so interesting. But I think we have to leave it there. Could you remind us of the name of your organisation and your website?

Melody
So Liberare Consulting and it’s liberareconsulting.co.uk is the website.

Christine
Thanks very much, Melody. It’s been really interesting to hear you on Incite Brilliance today.

Melody
You’re welcome. Thanks for inviting me.